SHOOT-OUT At The Obama BC Corral
July 13, 2012 1 Comment
Point / Counter-Point between A.R. Nash and “sentientstorm”:
You still have nothing to argue the claim that Obama was born anywhere else than in Hawaii!
[[WAKE UP! The claim, -the CLAIM, -the CLAIM is that he was born in Hawaii, but it is supported by nothing! -no witnesses! no physical document! no microfilm photo! no hospital record! and no pregnancy or post-delivery or even wedding photos! Where are the photos of Ann Dunham in a wedding dress? His “Hawaiian birth” is as solid and provable as a ghost. As visible as a Black Hole. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t born in his mother’s Hawaiian home but if he were, then we would not have to hide the birth certificate that he has used all of his teen and adult life. Where is that birth certificate? Why has he hidden it from everyone? What does it show that would ruin his presumed eligibility to be President? Tell me about how silly these questions are. About how a law degree graduate of Harvard, married with children, elected state and national Senator managed to get all the way through life without a birth certificate, and only had to order one because he chose to run for the unique office of the President of the United States! Tell me about how unhinged, irrational and emotional it is to realize that that is totally impossible.]]
This whole approach is nothing but unhinged, irrational and emotional adherence to a conspiracy theory, and is why the birthers are such a hazard to this country, the issue of the qualification for the Office, and any hope of the real facts of this issue ever getting proper media attention.
[[There is no hope of the real facts about constitutional ineligibility ever getting proper “media attention” and you know that, but you want to divert attention from the crime of creating a counterfeit representation of an official state document because that offense, unlike being an unconstitutional President, is a felony.]]
Your argument not only has no facts of its own, but dismisses anything officially recognized as fact,
[[What? Officially recognized? by who? Who is the official officially recognizing anything regarding Obama’s birth, -other than the lying obama toadies in the Hawaiian government? They have no credibility! No one who proclaims him to be a “natural born citizen”, as did the director of the HDOH, is honest because no one in government has the authority to do that, which you are well aware of.]]
“A non-standard format, in a non-standardized digital form, is still not a “counterfeit representation” of a any sort of birth certificate form.” [[Apparently you aren’t cognizant of what constitutes “standard”. Whatever a state government issues is the standard it follows, but no standard includes issuing pdf files so I’m still unclear exactly what you are referring to as being non-standard since Hawaii didn’t issue anything to Obama’s people. The pdf is certainly a non-standard image since it purports to be the image of a scanned document but it wasn’t made by a scanner since they don’t produce 9 random layers. Any such image which pretends to be something it isn’t is by definition a counterfeit.]]
“the format itself is not what HDOH attests to and ascertains, but rather the facts themselves are.”
[[You need to grasp the truth about the history and purpose of birth certificate certification. It is NOT what you think is the purported policy of today. Before the total bastardization of the digital age, subsequent to the development of the various forms of photographic reproduction, it was NOT the facts that were attested to, it was the reproduction itself that was certified as a “TRUE AND CORRECT COPY” of the original. The state was not in the business of certifying the information, -that judgement was left to those examining the certified copy of the original birth documentation. All the state did is certify that the copy was TRUE. Anything less than a certified true copy is open to alteration and fraud. The state seal is meant to prevent any other party from making any acceptable certification since they would not have a seal that is valid. So the assertion that the state could certify info on a napkin, while true, is a bastardized modern degradation of true certification and as such is deserving of no respect.]]
“but HDOH can send those facts in any format and they are still valid and in no way “counterfeit”.
[[ While having abdicated their responsibility to provide a certified true copy of the original, and taken it upon themselves to be the judge and determiner of what is factual information rather than the persons examining their certified copy of the original, that issue isn’t relative to the Obama situation since Hawaii has provided nothing that anyone has ever seen except Obama’s lawyers, but they won’t share it with anybody. Hence the need for the pretense of requesting a birth certificate when he already had one all along just like every other adult American. But he can’t show what he has because it reveals something which disqualifies him from being President in the minds of the American people. But the pretense was an opportunity to substitute a counterfeit image of a real birth certificate for one that he already possessed but couldn’t show.]]
“no document released by Hawaii is a fake. -it cannot be said to be a “forgery”, nor a “counterfeit”. Once the Arpaio investigation admitted the ‘document’ to be from Hawaii,…”
[[NO DOCUMENT WAS RELEASED BY HAWAII! The image released by the White House was a counterfeit representation of a real Hawaiian document. The correspondence released by the White House was a fraud and a part of a fabricated story of events that never transpired except in the minds of gullible children. Nothing that any Obama-lover working in the Hawaiian government says is credible, even under oath. They will lie for him til the cows come home. Would accept the word of the fox that guards the hen house when it comes to explaining where the missing chicken went?
Evidence is not needed to figure out that the text elements and document form shown in the pdf appears too genuine in general to not have come from actual files in possession of some dept. of the Hawaiian government. But the separate layers scream that one is beholding a computer creation. One that Arpaio reported and did not “admit” was from Hawaii. Only the guilty can admit to something.]]
“Again, those layers being “curious” and even “suspicious” does not provide any evidence of forgery,”
[[Wow! As previously stated, Hawaii DOES NOT DISSEMINATE PDF IMAGES! The very existence of multiple layers is testimony of fraud and counterfeiting.]]
“a public authority which is entitled to release documentation in whatever form it might deem necessary”
[[Wow! Hawaii only releases certified documentation is standard formats, as does every other state in the union. There is no non-standard certified documentation released, though you might love to convince folks that Hawaii alone was behind the making of the pdf monster, IT WASN’T. Still, it’s very possible that someone in the HDOH concocted it or supplied its source imagery to an outside counterfeiter.]]
“It was a public statement, made by Hawaii”
[[“It” was NOT a statement made by Hawaii, but by the Counterfeiter-in-Chief in order to convince the gullible that he was born in the United States. You complain about “arguing” over the birth certificate when the issue of natural citizenship is primary, but you know full well that the nation will remain ignorant of the constitutional issue but not of the counterfeiting issue.
Being an unconstitutional President is not a crime of any type, so focusing on that in any arena other that a federal court is a waste of time. But…counterfeiting and false representation are felonies and that is where Obama is vulnerable because the evidence is incontrovertible. That’s why it is NOT GOING AWAY! even though you’d like to see the public focus shift away from the provable to the disputable.
But the mistake of hastily saving and releasing the image as a nine layer pdf instead of exporting it as a flat jpg will haunt Obama for the rest of his life and eventually lead to a constitutional crisis. Or not, depending on the subservience of the RINOs in Congress. ]]
We see in the correspondence, referenced below, between Barack Obama, Obama’s legal counsel Judith Corley, and the Hawaii Director of Health Loretta Fuddy, that a “waiver” was granted to HDOH policy in producing a non-standard non-short-form birth certificate, so as to make this information “publicly available”. Mrs. Fuddy also affirms that she has the “legal authority to approve the process by which copies of such records are made.”
[[THERE WAS NO CORRESPONDENCE! -THERE WAS A BRILLIANT DISINFORMATION SCHEME THAT GULLIBLE DUPES FELL FOR]]
Thus far, there is no indication that this non-standard information release was in any way “illegal”, or somehow improper, much less fraudulent. [[THERE WAS NO HAWAIIAN FRAUDULENT RELEASE BECAUSE THERE WAS NO RELEASE PERIOD. THE FAKE PDF WAS MADE BY OBAMA’S COUNTERFEITER, NOT HAWAII]]
My point is this was non-standard policy, and a non-standardized form, and therefore it cannot be a forgery, and the facts support this. [[FACTS? IN FACT THERE ARE NO FACTS! WHAT YOU CALL FACTS ARE IN FACT FALSEHOODS DESIGNED TO DECEIVE THE UNSUSPECTING]]
No, the term “TRUE COPY” does not constitute it being a “duplicate”, but rather that the facts themselves are true.
[[NO, YOU ARE A DOLT, THE STAMP STATES WHAT ALL CERTIFICATIONS ONCE STATED, “THIS IS A TRUE COPY or abstract OF THE RECORD ON FILE. IT DOES NOT STATE THAT IT IS A RECORD OF FACTS.]]
Prior to that “bastardization of the digital age”, a “True Copy” might be issued as a photocopy, but generally documentation has since been computerized, with the birth data being entered into a database wherein various fields are filled in and then used to provide computer-generated standardized documentation. Generally, it has been recognized that the data fields in Hawaii’s “short form” certification, are sufficient for most legal standards. The problem in this instance clearly is, that both a “short form”, and apparently whatever Hawaii has, or does not have, on file “in the vaults”, do not seem to indicate the actual place of birth.
[[THAT WHICH IS TOTALLY UNKNOWN CANNOT INDICATE ANYTHING ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, INCLUDING HIS PLACE OF BIRTH. A FOREIGN BIRTH LOCATION IS INFERRED BY THE UNWILLINGNESS TO REVEAL THE BIRTH CERTIFICATE THAT HE’S USED ALL OF HIS ADULT, AND TEENAGE LIFE, EVEN NECESSITATING SUBSTITUTING COUNTERFEIT IMAGES SHOWING A HAWAIIAN BIRTH.]]
This is generally sufficient for most applications, to establish citizenship in Hawaii, but not to establish natural born citizenship status. While one might be born out-of-state, and still achieve recognition of citizenship status through Hawaii by having residence there, such a condition is insufficient to establish natural born citizen status. Could Hawaii be hiding the fact of a foreign birth? Sure, that’s possible, but there is no evidence on-hand to indicate this to be the case. [[THE EVIDENCE ON HAND IS THE EXISTENCE OF TWO COUNTERFEIT IMAGES IN OFFICIAL HAWAII DOCUMENT FORMAT]]
Your frustration seems to be fueled by wanting to see the original full-form application to register a birth issued by a hospital, however it is becoming increasingly evident that such a hospital-provided application to register birth does not exist in a more expansive form than what was scanned in from the ledger. Whatever frustration you might have with this ledger scan, in and of itself, does not indicate “fraud”, nor “forgery”, nor “counterfeiting”.
[[THERE IS NO SCAN OF A LEDGER. YOUR UNWILLINGNESS TO ADDRESS MY TESTIMONY THAT THE BC FORM TEMPLATE WAS DERIVED FROM A MICROFILM PHOTO IMAGE IS EVIDENCE OF YOUR STRICT ADHERENCE TO YOUR “TALKING POINTS” MESSAGE ABOUT THE PDF BEING THE RESULT OF 3 SCANS, (ONLY ONE OF WHICH DEFINITELY TOOK PLACE), IN ORDER TO PUSH THE FALLACIOUS ASSERTION THAT HAWAII DID ALL OF THE LAYERING AND NOT OBAMA’S PEOPLE WHO USED 7 DISTINCT LAYERS TO BUILD THE COUNTERFEIT]]
To establish such claims requires the existence of credible contradicting birth documentation, which does not seem to be in evidence. “Absence of evidence” is not evidence evident of fraud, and certainly not forgery,
[[WHY IS THERE AN ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE? IT’S BECAUSE OBAMA WON’T ALLOW ANYONE TO EXAMINE THE ORIGINAL MICROFILM BECAUSE IT WOULD DESTROY ANY BELIEF IN HIS PRESIDENTIAL ELIGIBILITY]
given that, yes, Hawaii DOH is entitled by law to issue information to the appropriate parties, in whatever form it deems necessary.
[HAWAII HAS RELEASED NOTHING EXCEPT TO OBAMA’S COUNTERFEITERS. THEY HAVE NOT AND DO NOT RELEASE TRUE COPIES BECAUSE BY MOVING TO ONLY DIGITAL RECORDS THEY’VE BASTARDIZED THEIR ROLE OF BEING A PROVIDER OF TRUE COPIES OF THE ORIGINAL HOSPITAL BIRTH RECORDS. THE ABSTRACT COPIES THEY PROVIDE ARE UNATHENTICATIBLE BECAUSE ALL DIGITAL INFORMATION CAN BE VERY EASILY MANIPULATED, AND ABSTRACTS ARE NOT AUTHENTIC COPIES OF ANYTHING. CERTIFIED DATA IS NOT AUTHENTICATED DATA BECAUSE THE CERTIFIER CAN BE ACTING IN A CRIMINAL MANNER]]
You state, “NO DOCUMENT WAS RELEASED BY HAWAII”, and that “the document released by the White House was a counterfeit representation of a real Hawaiian document” and that the correspondence with the White House is a “fabricated story of events that never transpired.”
That correspondence between HDOH and the White house is on official letterheads, and has been made public on the White House web site, and references “two certified copies” so it appears some actual physical documents did exchange hands.
[[IT APPEARS THAT YOU ARE TOO NAIVE TO GRASP THAT THE CONSPIRACY EMANATES FROM THE WHITE HOUSE WITH THE KNOWLEDGE AND CONSENT, OR ORDERS OF OBAMA HIMSELF.]]
If you want to believe that none of this happened, and that HDOH is entirely complicit in this supposed fraud, then none of the information coming forth from HDOH can be valid. This then leaves those expectant of some other information to be forthcoming from Hawaii, entirely without any possibility of future reward of their expectation,
[[ EXACTLY. THERE IS NO THERE THERE, THE ARCHIVE IS EMPTY. THE ONLY RECORD IS DIGITAL (“ON RECORD ACCORDING TO POLICY AND PROCEDURE”) while their claims of “fraud” are not supported by the existence of other more credible information. That makes this nothing but a faith in a conspiracy without any cause to believe in such.
[THERE YOU GO AGAIN, PRETENDING THAT THE 7 LAYER COUNTERFEIT IMAGE DOES NOT EVEN EXIST! IT IS EXHIBIT #1. AND MAY SOMEDAY SEND PEOPLE TO PRISON. IT DIDN’T CREATE ITSELF, A PHOTOSHOP COUNTERFEITER DID.]]
While there is an unanswered question as to whether the digital copy pdf was created by HDOH or the Obama administration itself, this is really a moot consideration.
[[IT IS MOOT TO THE EXTENT THAT WHO GOES TO PRISON IS MOOT]]
We know for a fact, as I’ve previously indicated, that the HDOH undeniably [SO…ANYTHING YOU ASSERT IS UNDENIABLE?] created a computer compilation of 3 digitized files to create the non-standard form on pubic display.
[[THAT IS AN ACCUSATION THAT HAWAII CREATED THE COUNTERFEIT]]
Either HDOH gave Obama et al that original digitial file, [[HAWAII GAVE OBAMA THE ELEMENTS USED TO CREATE THE FILE, -THEY DIDN’T STICK THEIR NECKS ALL THE WAY OUT BY MAKING IT THEMSELVES. THEY WOULDN’T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DO THAT]]
or a scan was made of the physical document to create yet another digital file for display on the Internet.
[[WHAT? THERE IS NO PHYSICAL DOCUMENT EXCEPT IN YOUR PIPE DREAMS] [NO SCANNER IN EXISTENCE WILL CREATE THE LAYERS SEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE PDF IMAGE. YOU KNOW THAT BUT PRETEND THAT YOU DON’T IN ORDER TO DECEIVE THE GULLIBLE INTO BELIEVING THE BS YOU’RE FLINGING ABOUT]].
Given the fact that the tabular port of the PDF digital document contains hand-written signatures, even of the physician, as well as typed information, we can conclude this information is as was provided by the hospital or attending physician in application for a birth registration, and then became bound in HDOH’s ledger.
[[YOU CAN ALSO CONCLUDE THAT THE TOOTH FAIRY IS REAL, THAT DOESN’T MAKE IT SO. BUT THEN, IN YOUR LA LA LAND PHOTOSHOP DOES NOT YET EXIST. SUCH BLISSFUL IGNORANCE HAS NO PLACE IN THE REAL WORLD.]]
Baring proof that this data is somehow inaccurate or fraudulent, [[THE ACCURACY OF THE DATA IS IRRELEVANT]] no claim can be made by mere examination of the pdf layers alone, that it is a “fraud” or a “forgery” [[EXCEPT THAT IF THE PDF IS A TRUE IMPOSSIBILITY AS BEING THE PRODUCT OF A SCANNER (WHICH IT IS), THEN IT IS IRREFUTABLE PROOF OF COUNTERFEITING BECAUSE IT SURE DIDN’T MAKE ITSELF]].
Such claims require actual contradicting direct proof. Having only supposition regarding circumstantial evidence is an insufficient argument, and involves no sort of real evidential proof.
[[WOW, YOU ARE SUCH A GREAT LAWYER! BUT HEY MR. LAWYER, GUESS WHAT? WE AIN’T IN NO CRIMINAL COURT! WE’RE IN THE COURT OF COMMON SENSE AND PUBLIC OPINION. AND PUBLIC OPINION IS VERY UNKIND TO COUNTERFEITERS]]
You state that the elements of the PDF appear “too genuine”, and that the separate layers “scream that one is beholding a computer creation.” Yes, we know for a fact that the overal “document” was a computer creation, done compiling information from 3 separate sources: 1) the bound ledger page, 2) the signature and seal page, [[SEAL? WHAT SEAL? YOU MUST HAVE X-RAY VISION]] and 3) the green security background originally not a part of the ledger page, but now seen to continue consistently across the ledger page and the signature/seal page. It is undeniably a “computer creation”, but neither this fact, nor the existence of various layers, establish any sort of “forgery”, nor fraud.
[[CLEARLY, YOU EITHER HAVE NEVER VIEWED AND MANIPULATED THAT BASTARDIZED CONCOCTION OR YOU DID BUT ARE DISHONESTLY REFRAINING FROM SPEAKING OF WHAT YOU DISCOVERED. YOUR CHARACTERIZATION IS DEFICIENT BECAUSE YOU ARE PRETENDING THAT THE THREE DATE-STAMPS AND none LAYERS DON’T EXIST. THAT DELIBERATE OVERSIGHT SERVES YOUR AGENDA WHICH IS NOT TO SPREAD THE TRUTH BUT TO BURY IT]]
You respond to my comment regarding parallax by referencing the horizontal lines being more curved the closer they are to the top. The curvature of these horizontal lines has nothing to do with parallax, but rather is a result of the amount of page curl expression from the ledger book increasing up the page. The lower portion of the scan has less page curl, likely as a result of the ledger being held in place there during the scan, while the upper portion has more page curl, which also corresponds with an increased shadow from that curl along the left hand margin.
[[THERE WAS NO PAGE CURL CAPTURED BY A SCAN. IT WAS CAPTURED BY THE MICROFICHE CAMERA LENS WHICH WAS USED TO PHOTOGRAPH BOUND LEDGER PAGES AS AN ARCHIVAL BACKUP IN CASE OF A FIRE OR FLOOD. THE MICROFICHE OR MICROFILM IMAGE OF PAGES WERE PROCESSED IN FUTURE YEARS TO EXTRACT THE INFORMATION THEY CONTAINED AND STORE IT IN AN EASILY ACCESSIBLE DATA BASE.]]
You state that “Hawaii only releases certified documentation [in] standard formats”, yet from the correspondence between the White House and HDOH, we know this to not be the case.
[[THE LONG FORM IS A STANDARD FORM. A STANDARD FORM DOES NOT IMPLY ANYTHING REGARDING COMMON USAGE OR LACK THEREOF. IT IMPLIES THAT IT IS A FORM THAT IS STANDARDIZED IN ITS CREATION, AND NOT SOME ONE OFF]]
We also know that HDOH can, and likely has, issued certified statements to various authorities when necessary, such as to a court of law.
[[LIKELY HAS? FOR WHAT CONCEIVABLE REASON? NONE. OH,…TO JUSTIFY THE SCENARIO IN WHICH THE LONG FORM BC (WHICH PURPORTEDLY DIDN’T EXIST) WAS ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW AVAILABLE BECAUSE HAWAII HAS THE DISCRETION TO CERTIFY INFO ON TOILET PAPER IF THEY WANT AND MAKE EXCEPTIONS TO SOP, SUCH AS A 7 LAYER PDF WHICH CAN’T BE BLAMED ON THE DEAR LEADER AND THEREFORE MUST BE GENUINE AND A CREATION OF A DEPT. THAT HAS NEVER ISSUED A PDF IN ITS ENTIRE EXISTENCE. YOUR LOGIC IS LAME AND HAS WORN VERY THIN]]
You state that I “know full well that the nation will remain ignorant of the constitutional issue but not of the counterfeiting issue.” There is not reasonably any sort of counterfeiting issue. The document provided is not intended to mimic any official form,
[[WHAT A BALD-FACE LIE, IT’S A COUNTERFEIT SO INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM AN IMAGE OF THE REAL THING THAT IF THE PDF HAD BEEN EXPORTED AS A FLAT JPG INSTEAD OF SAVED AS A 7 LAYER PDF, NO ONE WOULD HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ASSERT THAT IT WAS FAKE]
but rather provides testament as to the facts of birth. [IT PROVIDES TESTAMENT TO THE FACTS OF COUNTERFEITING AND NOTHING ELSE. THERE ARE NO “FACTS OF BIRTH” THERE ARE ONLY LOGICAL AND REASONABLE ASSUMPTIONS]]
We can challenge those facts of birth, but that would involve an assertion of “fraud”, and not counterfeiting. Overall, the real issue is one of Constitutional requirement, and not having a birth certificate, so this is a red herring and enormous waste of time, that does nothing but distort the fact of that actual constitutional requirement.
[[THIS ENORMOUS WASTE OF TIME SURE SEEMS WORTH A WHOLE LOT OF YOUR VALUABLE TIME. THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE YOU ARE WELL AWARE OF THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES OF CREDIBLE VOICES SPEAKING THE TRUTH IN AN UNAVOIDABLE WAY WHICH WOULD IGNITE LIKE A WILD FIRE ONCE IT TOOK OFF IN THE MEDIA, AND NOT JUST IN THE SILENT BLOG-O-SPHERE.]]
And, no, the pdf document currently available at the White House site, is not compressed, and does still have the layers. I downloaded it yet again last night, and examined the new download in Adobe Illustrator.
[[DID YOU PRINT IT, AND THEN SCAN IT, AND THEN EXAMINE THE SCAN? I THOUGHT NOT. YOU KNOW FULL WELL THAT IF YOU DID THAT YOU WOULD FIND IT HAD ONLY ONE OR TWO LAYERS, NOT SEVEN (ACTUALLY NINE SINCE THERE ARE TWO INVISIBLE ONES IN THE SECURITY PAPER BACKGROUND IMAGE). YOUR DISHONESTY ABOUT THE LAYERS INDICATES THAT YOU DIDN’T EXAMINE IT EXCEPT IN AN OBLIGATORY SUPERFICIAL MANNER, AREN’T INTELLIGENT ENOUGH TO GRASP THE SIGNIFICANCE OF WHAT YOU SAW OR ARE AVOIDING HONESTLY DISCUSSING IT. YOU’RE ALSO PRETENDING THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING OF THE EXPOSE THAT IS UNMISSABLE ON MY HOME PAGE, -WHICH YOU NO DOUBT HAVE EXAMINED AND ARE UNWILLING TO DISCUSS OR DISPUTE. YOUR PRETENSE OF HONESTY, LOGIC, AND REASON IS VERY SERPENTINE, -SMOOTH AS A SNAKE. AND WE KNOW WHO THE SNAKE REPRESENTS (THE FATHER OF LIARS AND DECEIVERS). BUT WHATEVER YOUR MOTIVES ARE, YOU’RE CONVINCED THAT THE ENDS JUSTIFY THE MEANS, SO NO INTELLECTUAL TRICK IS TOO DISHONEST TO IMPLEMENT. BUT YOU’RE WASTING YOUR TIME HERE BECAUSE NO NONFACTUAL STATEMENT IS GOING TO GET THROUGH UNCHALLENGED AND UNREFUTED.]]
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
You state that “NOTHING BUT SEPARATE BIRTH CERTIFICATE ELEMENTS WERE SUPPLIED TO OBAMA’S TOADIES FOR USING IN THE CREATION OF THE PDF COUNTERFEIT”, but you have nothing whatsoever to support this, except your own belief! Nothing!
[[The possibilities are that the separate bc elements were supplied by Hawaii to obama’s people to create the counterfeit bc image, or it was created as a counterfeit by Hawaii. There’s no reason to blame Hawaii for a crime that should have only been committed by clandestine operatives working for obama. Which do you chose to believe and who do you choose to blame?]]
And this claim the PDF was fabricated and the physical “document” was fabricated by Obama’s crew… [what bizarro planet are you living on? THERE IS NO PHYSICAL DOCUMENT. ONE HAS NEVER BEEN SEEN AND NEVER WILL BE SEEN. A print-out of a counterfeit digital image is not a “document” because it documents nothing!] is undermined by the fact of that stamp and signature being clearly seperate from the ledger page itself! What did they do, provide him all the elements, and tell him to fabricate whatever document and history he might desire to do?
[[Exactly. Yes and No. They didn’t tell the obama people anything other than “here they are, taken them and leave by the back door.”]]
You then go on to claim there was no correspondence, despite the public information to the contrary.
[[There’s NO public information! All that exists is disinformation prepared as a background story to explain the release of something that was claimed to not exist as a matter of Hawaiian policy. A good birth certificate counterfeit was needed but they also needed an explanation as to how it was acquired. They couldn’t say the truth of how they created it. They had to make up a story, so they made up a good one involving, of course, LAWYERS. Attorney-client-privilege sealed all the criminal details in privacy. Anyone who believes those letters were not a creative PR invention is wonderfully but dangerously naive.]]
That’s not only profoundly ridiculous, but leaves you turning everything upside down, with nothing at all having any credibility,
[[You naively fail to grasp that obama lost all credibility with the release of the 2nd birth certificate image.] and you do this so that you can support your own fixation with the “birth certificate” and birth in another country at all costs!
[You know very well that I have no emotion invested in this matter, and in fact e-mailed to the White House my initial supportive conclusions after examining the anomalies of the pdf so that they could defend it.]]
-with birthers arguing nothing but convoluted conspiracy theories, which become more and more flakey and far-reaching, and draw more and distinctions without any point (such as your “true copy”), as time progresses.
[[Let’s see now, so you feel a need to lump me in with any and every extreme theorists who ever uttered a discouraging word about obama’s birth certificate or eligibility? Why has the conversation degenerated to that base sort of spin? And why mention the fact that Hawaii no longer issues true copies but only abstracts unless you can show that the COLB or LFCOLB are images/photos/or scans of actual original hospital-issued birth documents and not mere digital computer creations?]]
Then the distinctions, where warranted, are totally ignored. For instance, there can be no “counterfeit” when the document is not attempting to mimic any specific form. THis is why monopoly money is not a counterfeit of real American currency.
[[If you create a computer-fabricated imitation of monopoly money you have created a counterfeit. Anything that imitates something real is a counterfeit. The pdf is certainly a counterfeit of a real, “specific” Hawaiian form. Or are you implying that Hawaii does not have a long-form birth certificate form at all?]]
MAYBE the image from the ledger was taken from microfilm, however you yourself are not able to provide any sort of “Testament” to that fact, as to do so you would be claiming a false authority and knowledge of something you could not reasonably know.
[[True, I don’t claim it as “my truth”, I state it as the only logical explanation because all states needed to preserve their records by having backups, and backups in the form of paper would be impractical, hence the creation of the microfilm/microfiche industry which served all large corporations and government departments. Read about it’s history in the blog page in my archive or at wikipedia. It’s very fascinating. The history of microphotography was pioneered back to the mid-1800s.]]
Beyond that, the distinction is irrelavant. The point was the birth documentation (from the hospital, complete with physician’s signature) was bound in a ledger, and then “a copy” of that was used to make a 3-part digital compilation which is the PDF.
[[“You are not able to provide any sort of “Testament” to that fact, as to do so you would be claiming a false authority and knowledge of something you could not reasonably know”. The birth documentation consisted only of what the Hawaiian officials claimed, namely something half written and half typed, -no doubt an affidavit by the mother or grandmother confirming obama’s birth, in hand written form and also a typed version. To assume that a hospital record exists in a ledger is the height of imagination, based on nothing, not even any assertion by a Hawaiian official.
All that’s been written by them is the legally crafted statement that his birth certificate is on record according to official policy and procedure, meaning in a digital data-base, but no statement has ever been made that what is on record is a microfilm image of a HAWAIIAN birth certificate, nor that one exists in a ledger in an archive.
Why would Hawaii avoid saying that obama has a Hawaiian birth certificate? Because it would be a lie. That fact was known by the attorney the state used often, the one who probably refused to certify for the DNC that obama was constitutionally qualified to be President because he had served as the divorce attorney for obama’s mother and had seen his birth certificate, the one torn out of the divorce record (missing page 11). She knew something that disqualified him from serving as President. What could it be other than his birth location. The foreign father fact was not hidden so that can’t be it even though it absolutely disqualifies him.]]
Your implication about “true copy”, that its absence somehow allows that the document might be a fraud, is also ridiculous. What should the document be a “true copy” of, in your mind, the original application from the hospital? That’s what is shown! It is the hopsital’s statements, with physician signature, that was supplied to the HDOH to register the birth. Not only is that original form able to be verified as a true copy in your claimed “microfilm”, but also it is in a bound ledger labeled with Obama’s birth year, and sequentially numbered. This then allows for the stamp on the pdf indicating, “I certify this is a true copy or abstract of the record on file”, and signed by the current Registrar of Vital Statistics for the State of Hawaii, Alvin T Onaka. They are, in fact, “authentic copies”, and can be verified.
[[If you truly believe what you’re saying then I feel sorry for you because your comprehension of the facts is sorely lacking. I’ll try to explain what you should have already read in my explanation titled “The Bastardization of Certification”. Nothing is a copy of something unless it is an actual replication of something real. An abstract is something that is not a copy of something real, but is an abstract version of what the original contains. The Registrar’s stamp makes an illegitimate claim because a certification certifies facts only, NOT possibilities (“True Copy OR Abstract”). The stamp of certification certifies either that the document it appears on is a True Copy or else it certifies nothing. Abstracts cannot be certified as true copies of anything because they are not copies of anything. They are abstract creations. It is not mere information that certified birth certificates exist to validate, it is the copy itself that is being certified as being a “TRUE” copy, and not an abstract, counterfeit, or manipulated copy. Hawaiian abstract birth certificate images are cobbled together by Hawaiian Health Dept. software. They no longer issue TRUE COPY print-outs of the microfilm photos of the hospital birth record. They used to do that but not anymore since they went all digital. Also, the registrar’s signature is an uncertified abstract representation of an actual signature. It is in other words, a counterfeit signature since it accurately imitates the real thing. No counterfeit abstract imitation signature certifies anything since it is signed by no one. No certificate is a certificate unless it certifies something via the signature of the certifier. So it can be said that all Hawaii issues is abstract uncertified imitation copies of original birth records.]]
I am quite aware that there is a conpspiracy from the White House to promote Obama as qualified, but this does not necessarily involve fabricating that he was born in the state of hawaii, and quite definitely does involve distracting attention from the fact that he was born a British citizen, which is something the birther-certificate obsessives fascilitate. You’ve got no credible evidence whatsoever to claim he was born anywhere else other than Hawaii,..
[[Will you listen to yourself? There is no “credible evidence whatsoever” of where he was born. The question you assiduously are avoiding asking is why that is. Why is there no real evidence? No real birth certificate? The answer is not needed to prove someone committed a felony by creating a false representation of an official state identify document. The nine layers of the PDF prove that. Why do you insist in only mentioning three layers when there should be only one or two, and there should be no pdf at all? There should be a glass case in the Press room holding an official Hawaiian birth certificate, certified by the actual signature of the Registrar, (without an actual signature nothing is actually certified unless no other person in the Hawaiian government has access to the Registrar’s stamp except him, which we know to not be the case.) It would need to contain the embossed state seal, and be authenticated in writing by an expert in document forgery. Nothing else except the actual strip of microfilm can provide true certification.]]
You yourself have said on this blog that “John McCain was natural born”, despite the fact that he was not born on American soil, and did not even receive mere CITIZENSHIP until 8 Title 1403 was enacted nearly a full year after his birth! John McCain, like Obama, was only promoted as a candidate through fraud.
[[So you have read none of the 100,000 words or so that I’ve written explaining the principle of natural membership? I don’t believe it. You’ve read and understood the truth about the unalienable right of natural membership but must strive to pretend you don’t know the truth. Neither you nor anyone else can possibly raise any counter argument and that’s why no one has. The facts are the facts. John McCain’s native country is the United States, just as would be a child of President George W. Bush,(-himself the son of a President) even if born anywhere in the world outside of the boundaries of the United States government. Obama’s native country is Kenya, or else he has no native country. Every child is a natural member of his father’s country. American parents produce American children. Citizen parents produce citizen children the world over. It is a child’s unalienable right to be a member of his parent’s group. That right is far above the authority of government to grant or rescind.]]
If you imagine Hawaii gave Obama “the elements” to make the final product, then why the hell is it such a reach that Hawaii gave Obama’s attorney a disk with those elements compiled into the form of the final digitial document?
[[that isn’t a reach, it’s a real possibility, physically speaking, but not logically. A digital file is not a certified birth certificate. If one states they did that then they are including the Hawaiian DOH people in the conspiracy and laying the felonious blame all on them, thereby leaving the White House White Knight free of any guilt. But guilty he is and the date stamps and the split word “none” are pronounced evidence of fraud. If the date stamps were whole, and not missing digits, and the word “non”(e) did not exist, then one could assert that the layers were unremarkable digital additions to a digital document, but their nature is clear evidence of counterfeiting. You would know that if you had read my essay “The Significance of None” and “The Smiley Face Anomaly https://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/none/ https://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/6_smoking_guns3b_txt.pdf or examined my large graphic expose of the added layers.]]
I also don’t believe you’ve ever used OCR software, and the fact that it seperates out on distinct layers recognizable characters and letters, and other detail as graphics, and the degree with which it does varies dependent upon adjustments in the software itself. But this is irrelavant, because those layers themselves dont prove “forgery” nor “counterfeit”, and none of those varied layers in evidence even imply the perpetration of any sort of fraud.
[[You are not grasping what you are seeing, which is imagery of actual typewriter typed text, -NOT computer generated digital-font text. Original text was extracted from one or more documents by deleting all pixels surrounding black and grey-scale pixels, (i.e., deleting the background paper (rendered pure white by boosting the contrast to a very high level, -something normally done to enhance grayish images of documents) leaving the text on a transparent background. Optical Character Recognition software was not employed because its output is digital text which can be manipulated in any word-processor, -changing fonts, sizes, color, etc. But text imagery is not digital text anymore than photo imagery is digital text.]]
Yes, a standard does imply something about a standard usage — that’s why it is “standard”. [OK, we’re both right. Usage can be standard usage and the form and be a standardized form] When the birthers got the original jpg image, they claimed they wanted a “long form”, and wanted a doctor’s signature, and the like. They got that doctor’s signature, and now they claim they want a standard form.
[They know and realize that an abstract is highly vulnerable to counterfeit manipulation because it is a digitally created product; -and the nature of the layers, if not their very existence, is the reason that they understand that manipulation took place.]
For almost 4 years I allowed that some evidence of foreign birth might surface, and recognized that the means existed to establish citizenship in Hawaii despite that foreign birth. However, in such a foreigh birth, there would be no local doctor’s signature in the ledger (or microfilm) on Obama’s original application, if he had such a foreign birth. And to get that citizenship recognized, despite foreign birth, there would be no need to provide a doctor’s signature. You’re not suggesting that Obama is such a deep Manchurian Candidate, that upon his birth in 1961, they even then knew to make him President that he had to have a doctor’s signature to validate his birth on American soil, are you?
[[a Manchurian Candidate theory has no logical beginning until after obama hooked-up with the parents of bill ayers in Chicago and they thought so much of him that they funded his college education. But that doesn’t hold water either because he convinced them that he was a foreign-student, from Kenya, so they would not have thought of him as presidentially eligible. But then who convinced him at that time that his future included becoming President, as he stated to that mailman serving the Ayers community? Lots of questions, few if any answers. The theory about the Dr. signature is that it was extracted from another person’s hospital record, along with various other elements, such as the “Received” and “Registered” date stamps.]]
Unless you have some credible, compelling evidence that he was actually born somewhere else, it is time to “let it go”.
[[HA! That’s funny. The burden of proof is not on the one being given a highly important and highly questionable assertion, it’s on the one making the unverified and unverifiable claim, which is that obama was born in Hawaii. No PROOF!, and yet we’ve given him the launch authority for thousands of nuclear bombs when his form of citizenship would not qualify him to even guard himself as President, much less have access to and control of nuclear weapons. I suspect that the most likely fact is that there’s a birth record for him somewhere in Vancouver, unless it’s been purged, which would be likely. It’s likely his mother was living in Seattle in the Spring & summer of ’61, gave birth in Canada because no American family signed-up to adopt her mixed-race child, and a possible Canadian adoption didn’t happen either, then she flew back to Hawaii after his birth, wasn’t warmly welcomed, so she quickly returned to her place in Seattle and began college classes.]]
My argument has nothing whatsoever to do with the “ends justifying the means” (which is just an irrelevant strawman you’ve introduced), but rather with distinguishing the difference between facts, and supposition. My goal is to promote an understanding of the Constituiton, and specifically the Article II requirement, which results in Obama being undeniably unqualified to hold office, no matter where he was born. However the same is true of McCain, and Marco Rubio as well.
[[Your confusion is noteworthy. If McCain in ineligible, then Obama is not ineligible, and vice versa because eligibility results from fulfilling the requirement of a single principle (natural citizenship via patrilineal descent) not two principles! (U.S. birth and citizen parents)]]
Then you have another nonsense graphic pronouncing that jus soli has nothing whatsoever to do with natural born (ignoring all the numerous Supreme Court decisions to the contrary),
[[Don’t look to men to ascertain truth because they come with preconceptions and ignorance that facilitates erroneous conclusions. No judge is less fallible or biased or opinionated than any other person who isn’t a judge. Higher rank doesn’t come with infallibility or else there would be no such thing as a split decision. Don’t farm out your thinking to others, rely instead on reason. Unbiased logic is the only thing that does not lead one into error. Without it you will fall into the trap of believing Chief Judas Robert’s redefinition of the words “Tax” and “Penalty” Let’s see…both involve handing money over to the government so they must be synonymous, just like “Ocean” and “Lake” both involve bodies of water so lakes must be oceans and oceans must be lakes! But when is a tax every considered to be a penalty? Are people required to pay their annual income penalty or their income tax? Is the tax-penalty a punishment for the crime of earning an income? Can one conflate an arrow and a rock, both of which can be hurled at a target, and call an arrow an arrow-rock, or a rock-arrow?]]
…recognition of a thorough membership in a specific society, with that society being established and recognized by its specific location (ie jus soli).
[[wrong, the NATION is recognized by its location, the society is recognized by its population. If they are all dead, the location still exists, but the society and its nation no longer does. Apparently you’re oblivious to the fact that “natural born” fundamentally involves recognition of NATURE! -not borders. They aren’t natural!] ]
Thus the idea that a natural, “self evident” membership in that specific society might be established by birth to previous members of that society anywhere outside that society, is fundamentally ridiculous.
[that is true, but not for the reason you think. It’s because you said “previous” members. Being and living outside of one’s homeland is irrelevant to one’s membership in their country. One is still subject to its jurisdiction, via taxes and military conscription, and bans on trade with certain nations, and violations of U.S. laws even though outside of its territory. You are ignorant if you think that one becomes a “previous member” without being naturalized into another nation or losing one’s U.S. citizenship.]
At this point, i am done with this exchange. I originally thought it might be a productive discussion, [[that wasn’t possible because of your inability to grasp new facts due to ingrained bias.]] but your ever-increasing ad hominum attacks do not begin to cover for the evidence absent in your argument, failure to grasp even most fundamental terms and processes, and now less than respectful editing of my previous post to insert your own comments.
[[respect is something easily lost when obfuscation is the main purpose of the dialogue. The correction of erroneous and uninformed assertions has a higher priority than politeness. You can’t believe that the stakes aren’t high enough to warrant a full-force push-back against falsehoods that serve to defend, -not the Constitution, -not the truth, but one’s Marxist hero.]]